Downrange: A No Laying Up Podcast

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No Laying Up Podcast

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On the eve of his 84th birthday, we are honored to welcome Lee Trevino to the pod for the first time. Over the course of two hours we cover Lee's unlikely story of overcoming poverty and hardship in his youth, his introduction to the game, military service in the Marine Corps, money game matches and introduction to the pro tour, winning majors, competing against Nicklaus, Palmer and Player and a ton more.

A fresh, funny discussion of all things golf from the guys at No Laying Up. Episodes air twice a week and topics include tournament recaps, interviews, deep dive player profiles, golf travel, and more.

NLU Podcast, Episode 768: Lee Trevino

Hunter Mahan returns to the pod to catch up on all things Ryder Cup and gives his take 

 Before the Ryder Cup discussion, Hunter shares his reasons for optimism concerning the professional game and offers some insight into the players' response to the communication from the Tour concerning the framework agreement.

For more Ryder Cup tales from Hunter, check out our interview 

Here's a sneak peek at Soly's conversation with Hunter... (Note: Answers edited for clarity and conciseness...) 

 It's culture. You're talking about somebody who just harvests some kind of culture. I refer to this all the time, Shane Ryan does a great series of podcasts for Golf Digest called 

 He has an episode about 1983 and 1985. If you wanna talk about the Seve stuff, I don't have the exact quotes, but in 1983 down in Palm Beach, they had the closest Ryder Cup ever in the modern era on US turf.

The team was pretty devastated afterward. And Seve like got them in the locker room - everybody's devastated and crying. He's like, "This is a victory for us. This is the best we've ever done and we will win in 1995." 

"When we go to Belfry, we will win." And that's how that night ended, was in celebration. Jose Maria Olazabal said, "I would happily give one major back to play in the Ryder Cup." That traces all the way back to creating a buy-in back in the 80s that has permeated through that team since then. The US has had some success in short bursts, but that has never been harvested or led by anyone.

In the one instance you're referring to, there was no rollover from Azinger into 2010. And that kind of feeling was lost. I can't ask enough people about how to explain being inspired. I've not played in one of these yet. I'm working on it. But I imagine you can't just listen to Metallica and get pumped up and play amazing golf, right? It's not an adrenaline test. It's not like who can get the most jacked up to play. What does inspiration mean? How does it help you play better golf?

 Well, I think that Paul did a really good job of a slow bleed, right? It wasn't that week of running through a wall. 

Phil sat me down after I got picked. It was at a playoff event or something. And he went through this whole list. He said, "We're gonna win and lemme tell you why." And he went through this whole list. I told the Golf Digest guys how important Phil was. And Phil kept a lot of these teams together in a lot of different ways. He's very inspiring. (But) he's not inspiring by running through a wall or banging tables or any sort of speeches.

He really cares. The Europeans that they care about this event more than when, when, when they say that, when Maria Olazabal says that, it says, I would happily give up whatever to, to play one more to be a part of it - they mean that. You have to get the players to get ownership of the team. You can't just be the leader of them. The thing that Paul did was that he was just so energized and so excited about the opportunity and he brought in the people and the fans.

You don't get that over there. So you have to kind of create it. But the reality is, you've got to put it on the players and find little groups and little pods of them. People hated the pod thing, but the reason why it worked is that 12 people can't bond that week. But you need to give the players ownership and say, this is your team, we're all gonna need to help inspire each other. And it has to be this bleed of continuous motivation throughout that whole year and keep everyone's minds kind of investing in it the whole time, right? It's not a one-week thing.

NLU Podcast, Episode 767: Hunter Mahan

It’s the moment we’ve all been waiting for: TC’s Ludvig victory lap.

(2:30) Soly is joined by TC and D.J. to unpack quite possibly the most buzzing week of the fall! If you’ve been swaddled by the comfort of more popular American sports, it’s time to get you up to speed on some big updates in the golf world. The 1-hour fall podcast rule has been BROKEN, so buckle up.

The show begins with Sean Martin catching a stray from TC, who calls him out for frequenting Starbucks during the week of the RSM Classic – ranked as his favorite story of the week, right before the actual Ludvig dub. Ludvig compiled weekend rounds of 61-61 to earn his first PGA Tour victory at the RSM Classic – and in only 14 professional starts, is No. 32 in the entire world…


Not so shockingly, TC is allowing everyone but Soly Ludvig amnesty. (He refuses to move on from “Mulevig”.)


(5:50) Could Ludvig be better than…Viktor Hovland? On who could perhaps be Ludvig’s closest comp, and some prognostications for his overall career trajectory, as well as comparing his swing to the Terminator. The guys uncover his Masters odds, and uh, he’s better than a bevy of recent major champions.


(21:25) On the heels of the inevitable, D.J. quizzes Soly and TC on their ability to name the last 20 years' worth of PGA Tour Rookie of the Year winners.

(29:00) Nicolai Højgaard wins the DP World Tour Championship by two shots after carding five birdies in his final six holes. A final round 64 sealed the deal for another talented rising star. The top ten DP World Tour players have now earned PGA Tour status: Adrian Meronk, Victor Perez, Ryan Fox, Thorbjørn Olesen, Alexander Björk, Sami Valimaki, Robert MacIntyre, Matthieu Pavon, Jorge Campillo and Ryo Hisatsune.

(32:00) TC addresses the “Fleetwood is washed” allegations. Soly is asking for the receipts re: Tony Finau in 2021.


(36:15) The guys react to Rory McIlroy stepping down from the PGA Tour policy board. Why now? Was it too much to handle after all?

(42:20) D.J. conducts a wellness check on the pro golf discourse. Soly goes on a can’t-miss rant on how awful of a golf year it’s been.

(44:45) The TGL roof collapsed. (Update post-pod: 

(51:00) Everyone’s favorite duo–I mean, Patrick Cantlay and Xander Schauffele have withdrawn from the Hero World Challenge. Are there two spots available on any LIV teams? *Insert LIV tangent*


(53:25) The PGA Tour’s tournament funding structure is changing, and now they’ve have to potentially “charity snatch” to fund purses?

(1:00:30) Lanto Griffin’s take re: the PGA Tour policy board shift inspires a larger take on mule representation, money and the internal power dynamic.

(1:18:10) Paul Azinger’s contract with NBC was not renewed. Assessing his impact on coverage, and who an apt replacement would be. Should the coverage itself be revitalized?

(1:29:10) The Cat is back and it only took ~90 minutes to mention it! Is the silver spoon, OWGR point giveaway Hero World Challenge 

(1:32:30) So who watched the Netflix Cup? Should we keep doing this kind of stuff?

(1:39:50) The next Match between Rory, Max Homa, Rose Zhang and Lexi Thompson has been pushed back to Q1 of 2024.


(1:40:10) Amy Yang shot 27-under at the CME Tour Championship and a $2M prize, one of the largest in women’s golf. But does the ramp-up and presentation around it fall flat? Maybe we should start advocating for Tiburon erasure.


(1:50:30) John Smoltz advances to the final stage of Champions Tour Q-School.


(44:45) I too feel for the people who worked hard to put TGL together, and I hope this becomes an ice-cold take, but simulator golf isn’t reinventing the wheel, nor am I actually that bummed out that it’s been postponed. All of it is super corporate and sanitized and giving a little…unfun? Which is the last thing golf needs.

(1:32:30) For the ten minutes I watched it, I didn’t hate the Netflix Cup, Soly. I think with some structural changes – the weird crossover between F1 and golf, the LIVcore of it all – it could be, uh, better? But the sphere is hilarious, and I think we can all admit that.


(47:40) “Flaccid, but elongated. It’s been an elongated rollout.” -TC on the TGL

(1:22:20) “He (Faxon) speaks to me when he talks. I don’t know who Zinger was talking to at the end.” -Soly

(1:41:35) “If you’re trying to make this great made-for-TV product, and the TV broadcast feels like a funeral procession – there’s no juice to the TV product – the 2 million dollar first prize doesn’t mean anything.” -TC on the LPGA season finale


(36:30) Monahan and Herlihy statement on 

Sources: PGA Tour making changes to tournament funding structure with purses on the rise

Lanto Griffin pulls no punches as Rory McIlroy leaves PGA Tour Policy Board, but who should replace him?

 (1:30) Thanks to our friends at Titleist for the support, where you can find the best ball in golf. They recently released a video featuring Soly, Scottie Scheffler and Jordan Spieth engaged in some golf ball testing – 

(27:30)  Shoutout to our friends at Rhoback activewear. The holiday season is quickly approaching, and Rhoback is fresh off new restocks. Breathable, lightweight fabric on their signature performance crews – we can’t say enough good things about the hoodies. Between fit, feel, and quality, no one is doing it like Rhoback. Use code “NLU” at the 

NLU Podcast, Episode 766: Ludvig, TGL Roof Collapses, Rory Leaves the Board, RSM Classic (+ Show Notes)

Randy and Cody are joined by Jordan Perez ahead of this week's LPGA Tour Championship. On the pod this week:

Jordan gives us a sneak peek at her profile of Angel Yin, which you can find 

We recap the year for world no. 1 Lilia Vu as she reclaimed the top spot in the world rankings after her fourth win of the season last week at the Annika as well as some other notable performances during the tour's Asian swing (8:30)

What to make of some of the notable players who did not make the Tour Championship (30:10)

Who would win player of the year if the award was voted upon as it is on the PGA Tour? (44:00)

Some of the other season-long awards up for grabs this week, assorted news and notes from across the women's game, and our picks to win this weekend in Naples (54:00)

NLU Podcast, Episode 765: LPGA Check-In

Soly catches up with Michael Kim for a true golf nerd discussion covering:

(2:30) His social media presence and embracing his role as one of the Mules on tour.

(7:15) His opinion on the decision makers on potential outside investment into the tour and how important the effects on his level of player will prove to be in the decision-making process.

(16:10) The depths of the struggles he dealt with in his game, working to find a way out of those struggles and the search for the right swing coach to help in that process.

(37:10) A more thorough explanation of some of his tweets regarding how pros approach their swing thoughts, the distance debate, and more.

Here's a sneak peek at Soly's conversation with Michael... (Note: Answers edited for clarity and conciseness):

You've enjoyed a career renaissance, is that a fair phrase to say? Before we get into that, if I pull up your Data Golf page, there's a lot of red in the strokes gained off the tee category for several years there. Take us into what was going on there, and how you dug yourself out of that.

Oh man, I mean it's so red. They might need another color for how red it was back then. It's a few years, right? It's not like a three-month process.

 For those that are not looking at the numbers, it goes: 2018 -0.107  -1.58, -1.84, -1.31. So four straight years there of losing more than a stroke per round off the tee.

And guys like Rory and John Rahm are gaining like a full shot. To me, that's not just a two-stroke difference. That's also the amount of stress I felt like I was putting on myself during the round. It started in 2018. I get off to a not a great start in the year and I'm missing cuts. And even if I make cuts, I'm finishing 60th, 70th, barely hanging on.

NLU Podcast, Episode 764: Michael Kim

Bermuda, we hardly knew ya. JK JK, but The Pro has won and that’s what we’re getting to first.

Sure, it’s the quiet part of the golf calendar but there’s nothing quiet about a Max Homa dub. Soly, TC and D.J. bring Max on for a small post-victory cameo to discuss The Pro’s big win at the Nedbank Challenge in South Africa before exploring all the other big-name topics – and of course, safaris and international travel. Max shot a 6-under 66 to come out with a 19-under total for the tournament, and gets into why he decided to play some golf abroad in the “off-season.”

(12:30) What’s going on this fall season? The guys talk about the actual implications of the fall season.


(21:45) Covering Gary Player’s choice words on the Augusta National Women’s Amateur…and what the possible origins of his ire might be.

(24:00) Camilo Villegas wins the 2023 Butterfield Bermuda Championship, earning his first PGA Tour victory since 2014 – right in between his commentating gigs and second stage of Korn Ferry Tour Q-School.

D.J. classifies Villegas as the Rickie before Rickie, between the fun fashion, BDE wins, and relentless drive — specifically, how he spent nearly a decade trying to climb back. Villegas also endured personal tragedy in 2020 when his daughter, Mia, passed away at 22 months after fighting brain and spine tumors.

Bermuda might be among the grainier stops on the schedule! The guys’ two cents on the setup, and some more discourse on what exactly they’re fighting for. Elevated events, the top 125, what does any of it mean anymore? (Is any of this curing anyone’s golf fatigue?)

was Adam Scott playing in this event? And uh, Adam Long has hit 69 fairways in a row, which might be the stat of the year.

(44:00) What’s the latest on the future of the financial future of the PGA Tour? The latest investment news, and speculating where the PIF might involve itself. Does it make sense to invest in the thing that isn’t uh, entirely moving the sports needle?


If it doesn’t bring all of the gang back together re: LIV “defectors,” what is all of this worth?

, and any new developments + takes. Apparently, they’re playing on actual grass.


(57:20) Recapping the ANNIKA, where Lilia Vu won for the fourth time this year. She won by three shots over Alison Lee and Azahara Munoz in the lead-up to the season-ending CME Tour Championship.

(1:00:45) TC and D.J. embarked on Pinehurst No. 10 designed by Tom Doak. They recap their experience playing it, Tom Doak courses and Pinehurst overall.

(1:08:30) Ben Campbell wins the Hong Kong Open over Cam Smith? 

(1:08:45) On what was previously the Honda Classic, the Tour gaining full control over the event and what its future looks like – suggestions of who the title sponsors might be?

(1:14:20) Tiger spotted caddying for Charlie again, Rory spills on the LaCava sitch.


In the spirit of a big buy out day (hey, Jimbo!), the crew closes out with who in the golf world they would each individually buy out.


(44:00) I’m curious about why all these suitors–I mean, investors, are lining up to try to save – I mean, invest – in the PGA Tour. I guess there’s enough intrigue somewhere to feel like they can be these “long-term” partners, but I don’t know. If that’s enough to bring change somewhere that doesn’t involve mini Chainsmokers festivals and flash mobs waiting for a Phil Mickelson tee time, be my guest.


(35:00) Soly, D.J. is right. We shouldn’t need the explainer graphics, but I still totally do. I think I’m gonna listen back to this segment to remind myself exactly what this means for all the “bubble” guys and locking up their fates. But you’re also right. Play better.

(5:15) “We saw two cheetahs just devouring this wildebeest, and I thought it was going to be a rather concerning thing to see prior to the trip, and then you see it and it just feels right, in a way? I mean, they gotta live too.” -Max Homa


(34:50) “I shouldn’t need this many explainer graphics to consume our sport.” -D.J.

(54:15) “The more Golden Tee the design gets, the better.” -Soly


(57:50) “The ANNIKA driven by Gainbridge at Pelican, presented by the January 7th committee.” -Soly

Adam Schupak: Exclusive: PGA Tour taking over management of former Honda Classic, new title sponsorship on the verge of signing

Paul Kimmage meets Rory McIlroy and Shane Lowry: the inside story of the Ryder Cup win – and fiery bust-up with US team

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NLU Podcast, Episode 763: Butterfield Recap + Max Homa from South Africa ( + Show Notes)

As news about the forthcoming TGL (Tomorrow Golf League) has trickled out in recent weeks, we gather to try and compile what we know, and what we don't know, about the venture.

First up, the basics of the league: the competition format, the rosters, who's investing in the league, etc.

Our big picture feelings about the state of the TGL venture and how legitimate the competition will feel to viewers (20:20)

The viability of the league long term in light of the non-Tiger players who are participating and the cringe-worthy Morikawa video (45:30)

Rahm's absence from the league after initially committing and other notable players who are not participating (56:50)

Our best guesses on how the league will do in its initial season (1:04:00)

NLU Podcast, Episode 762: The TGL

No recap pod this weekend as we're all on the road after our 

2023 Nest Invitational Tournament in Frisco, Texas.

 Instead, we bring you another calendar year majors deep dive with Soly and KVV as we turn the clock back to 1996. We start, of course, with the dramatic Sunday in Augusta as Greg Norman falters and Nick Faldo claims his third Masters.

Then it's on to Oakland Hills (49:00) for Steve Jones's unlikely triumph at the US Open, Tom Lehman's lone major win in the Open Championship at Royal Lytham & St. Annes (1:27:25), and we wrap with the PGA Championship at Valhalla (1:29:55) where Mark Brooks beats local favorite Kenny Perry in a playoff.

NLU Podcast, Episode 761: 1996 Majors

Soly catches up with veteran swing coach Sean Foley to discuss his career coaching some of the best players on tour and lessons learned from mistakes over the course of his interactions with tour pros (12:30). We also examine the different styles of coaching when it comes to professional players (20:30), the intersection of swing thoughts and relying on natural instincts (32:30), working with Tiger (44:00), adjusting his teaching methods for the next generation (57:00) and more.

We're also bringing you something new after our chat with Sean as our own Kevin Van Valkenburg reads his recent essay "I Walk Alone: Embracing Solo Golf" (1:13:10), which you can also 

Here's a sneak peak at Soly's conversation with Sean Foley... (Note: Full answers edited for clarity and conciseness)

We could do a whole podcast I'm sure on just this guy. I'm pretty proud of myself for waiting almost 45 minutes before asking about Tiger. But you brought him up so I'll ask you about it. Looking back on that you said you're grateful that the coaching relationship came to an end. I'm wondering kind of what you meant, how would that go today if you were to start with him, and let's just ignore health for him for the sake of this arg of this conversation. But if you were starting with Tiger Woods today, how different would that look compared to when you started with him? Was it 2010? I believe it was.

 I don't know if you can discriminate on the two, because I started with T Dubs nine months after everything kind of fell apart. And so you're dealing with someone who's incredibly wounded, probably embarrassed just in a way different place than he's ever been in his life, right? I mean it was like going from a deity to a punchline almost overnight. And so, you know, I think as I kind of came in, he was starting to see some of the mistakes he made and some of the effects that that was gonna have. And so I think we did a pretty good job together. I think what I would have done much more, that I understand now is I would've probably spent less time coaching him and more time just being his friend as I was. Like how arrogant was I to think 'Do you actually teach Tiger Woods about golf?'


NLU Podcast, Episode 760: Sean Foley

Checking in from Down Under, Soly is joined by Ben Hotaling in his first full podcast appearance! (Ben is a huge part of what happens on the video side here at No Laying Up – click here 

(3:00) The duo spent the past week embarking on the Asia-Pacific Amateur at Royal Melbourne, where the best amateurs playing within the continent descend upon world-class venues for a chance at a Masters invite and an exemption into The Open Championship. The guys spent the week learning and embracing a quietly covered yet enormously important amateur event – and immediately dive into their immediate impressions, including a deeper appreciation for sandbelt golf.

(14:00) 21-year-old Jasper Stubbs won his first Asia-Pacific Amateur Championship in a three-way playoff against Wenyi Ding (2022 U.S. Junior champion) and Sampson Zheng, a senior at Cal. Stubbs had started his day six shots behind Zheng, the overnight leader, and got off to a +2 start through six holes, but made four birdies and went bogey-free after to earn his way into the playoff.


All week, Zheng looked like the player to beat, especially after he shot the amateur composite course record at Royal Melbourne with a 65 – Soly and Ben dive into what they witnessed, including some highlight shots and the atmosphere of a countryman winning it all and his visibly shaken challengers.

(29:00) Soly and Ben open up about some of the players they met of various ages, countries and the culture and elements of the event not often found stateside.


(42:30) Reviewing logistics, setup, routing and how the tournament was run overall. The culture of sandbelt golf is open and friendly but provides a challenge intimidating enough to question your golf game…

(50:00) How did Soly and Ben fare on sandbelt golf? And a preview of their match at the composite course Washed Soly is looking to reclaim his throne of best golfer at NLU against a humble Ben. Video of their match coming soon.

(55:00) What’s the hold-up on fully bringing professional golf down under? Exploring what that could look like. Does it need to happen in the era of a rollback? Money? Think of what a major at Royal Melbourne could look like!

(1:01:00) Some miscellaneous news and notes from the rest of the golf world, including Celine Boutier’s nine-hole playoff victory at the Maybank Championship and Sami Valimaki’s playoff win at the Commercial Bank Qatar Masters. Endeavor is out as a potential investor of the PGA Tour.

Thanks to everyone who followed along on the socials this week. Lots of video content in the works from a great week spent.

(29:30) I appreciate Soly noting the level of representation these amateur championships – specifically, the APAC, provide. 37 countries were represented in the championships, but not every federation is built equally. There’s a real element of meritocracy in seeking out these players from less established golf countries and platforming them – whether it’s furthering the game internationally, finding a budding rising star, or growing it within their own.

KVV wasn’t even on this pod, but he might deserve it for pitting two NLU employees against each other. Kinda toxic. Hello HR! At the same time, that’ll just make the match that much better. So maybe not.

(15:00) “You and I watched a lot of golf this week. I saw almost no made putts.” -Soly

(52:15) “Kinda flippantly in our Slack channel, KVV referred to Ben as being the best golfer at NLU. You are the lowest handicap by almost three shots at this point. And I took that personally, I feel like I’ve held that crown for quite some time…you did nothing wrong, this is directed at KVV, you were caught in the crosshairs.” -Soly

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NLU Podcast, Episode 759: Asia-Pacific Amateur Recap (+ Show Notes)

Big Randy and Cody are back with a recap of the latest from the women's game including Lexi's performance on the PGA Tour, the last couple of LPGA tournament results, recent interviews featuring Rose Zhang and Mollie Marcoux Samaan, and more.

Then in part two (45:00), we're joined by Gabi Ruffels to talk through her year on the Epson Tour, her transition from high-level junior tennis to golf and a look ahead to her upcoming year on the LPGA Tour in 2024.

(47:47) Life on the Epson Tour, missing the Q-Series registration deadline

(52:48) Finding enjoyment by simplifying golf, learning to win, turning her professional golf career around and dominating the Epson Tour

(01:01:41) Having professional tennis players as parents

(01:08:40) Getting a late start in golf, how starting tennis instead helped

(01:12:23) Goal-setting, future aspirations outside of golf

Here's a sneak peek at Randy and Cody's convo with Gabi... (Note: Full answers edited for clarity and conciseness.)

 When you talk about improving your standard, were there certain things in terms of your golf game that you really keyed in on last off season prior to this year? I'm curious how you went about raising your standard.

 I kind of went back to, I guess my college days and my amateur days and how I enjoyed playing golf. I kind of went back to keeping it more simple, which is how I've always enjoyed doing it ever since I started at 15. I kind of went back to that I think when I first turned pro. I tried to be a pro, I guess, and kind of change some things that I don't think I really, I guess, needed to change and added a few things here and there. I feel like I've kind of learned this year is just trying to be more of myself and trust myself and what I was doing and knowing that it was good enough.

And I feel like that's kind of what I've gone back to this year and worked super hard on, you know, a few different things. But yeah, just trying to, just kept it simple, which I've really enjoyed.

 Just for those that might not know, from the time you were very young up until what, 14-15, you played high level junior tennis in Australia and competed in international tournaments. How much do you draw on  that tennis experience and does anything with the mindset helped you in your golf career?

 Yes, for sure. I would say so. A lot of people ask me if I would trade I guess my tennis years and have started golf earlier. I would say no. I feel like it's definitely helped me, especially with the mental side of things for sure. And knowing how to work, the work ethic, the competitiveness. And I feel like when I stopped playing tennis, I was so used to that really intense work ethic and I feel like I kind of transferred that into golf. 

I definitely feel like that's helped me and the competitive side of things. Learning how to close out a match, how to win, how to remain level out there. I feel like all sports can kind of correlate mentally for sure.

That's also why I kind of drawn my parents' experiences with their tennis 'cause I feel like a lot of it definitely correlates. I wouldn't trade my tennis years and definitely feel like it's helped me.

NLU Podcast, Episode 758: Latest LPGA News and Notes + Gabi Ruffels Interview

Our Ryder Cup recap content continues with Soly and TC interviewing European assistant captain and analytics guru Edoardo Molinari. 

We get into his first explorations into golf data and analytics during his own professional career, his experience helping Luke Donald form the partnerships that were so successful in Rome, how he viewed some of the decisions from the American team, the atmosphere in the team room after the heated ending to Saturday's matches and a ton more.

(3:40) Team Europe post-Whistling Straits

(7:19) How Edoardo was brought on board, how his experience contributed, his penchant for data

(14:45) Combining course setup with player selection, influencing  pairings

(33:23) DP World Tour involvement in building pairings

(45:44) How Team Europe responded to Team US + Edoardo's thoughts on Team US

(57:29) Team room atmosphere on Saturday night after LaCava vs. McIlroy, any nerves after Team US gained momentum

(1:00:34) Edoardo's future as a captain? How does captain selection work?

(1:03:20) Looking to Bethpage, summing up Luke Donald's leadership

Here's a sneak peek at Soly and TC's convo with Edoardo...(Note: Full answers edited for clarity and conciseness.)

 You mentioned guys being good for foursomes and good for four Ball. What makes those profiles fit? I cannot dive any harder into the Ryder Cup and I still don't think I have any understanding of how you identify who those guys are. In your mind, how do you identify who's good at foursomes and who's good at four ball?

 Again, four ball is basically just making birdies. So whoever is making the most number of birdies is good in four balls. And then we had a little, not secret, something that I'm going not gonna disclose to make sure that we can -- two players that can make the same number of birdies, but then you want to kind of mix 'em up a little bit. 

Then in foursomes, it's a bit more complex. So I started to kind of develop a system where basically we could have, let's say Rory playing with Tommy and then Rory will hit the tee shot on the first. We know exactly how many times he's gonna hit the fairway and how far he's gonna be. So then from there, Tommy is gonna hit the second shot. And we know his dispersion and strokes gained from each distance range. How many times does he hit it inside 10 feet and then Rory hits the putt and then you just keep going. 

You make them play 18 holes on a kind of a simulation and then you get an expected score and then you flip them. So all of a sudden Tommy hits the first, then Rory hits the second shot into the first, and then you do the same for all possible combinations. And we could do it I mean we looked at - I think we were looking at like 25-30 players. All of a sudden you had some players that were very good in foursomes for different reasons. One player could be very good because he hits a lot of fairways. One player could be very good because even holes it's important to putt very well. So like he could be a great foursome player. 

For example, Ludvig was great because he's obviously unbelievable off the tee. And then if he was playing even, you could hide a little bit his weakness with his approach play. So all of a sudden him playing with Viktor, you're basically giving Viktor 10 yards longer off the tee. As many fairways as Viktor hits. then you got Viktor hitting a club less into the greens. He's deadly from 160 and then from 150s and worse.

 How much did it change up, like versus what you thought it was gonna be on Saturday? How much did you, you know, based on how people played or surprises or anything like that?

 Basically on Friday we had the plan set in stone the weekend of Ireland. So two to two and a half weeks before, we had a couple of options: In case Player A is not playing great, we can swap him and in case Player B is not playing great, we can and still have everyone on the course on Friday which was the biggest concern. And then Saturday, Luke was very keen on making sure that Jon was rested for Sunday singles. At Whistling Straits he played five matches and he said he was very tired on Sunday. So if we had the option to rest someone, Jon was always gonna be the first one of our big players to rest. And that's what happened on Saturday. I mean after Friday started, the morning was always gonna be exactly the same, just we just switched the order a little bit. And then in the afternoon, Jon rested. We had a couple of different pairings that we could kind of switch with each other. 

We had to hand in the pairings at 11:00 AM for the afternoon session. We always met at 10:15, 45 minutes before with Luke and the other vice captains in a corner on the golf course. Every time it was like a five-minute discussion and it was pretty easy. And the same thing at night. I think we had an hour from when they finished playing before we could before we had to hand in the pairings for the next morning and it literally took us five minutes on Friday night. The great thing with Luke is that he's - I'm quite similar - he's very well organized. He likes to think about a lot of different options and possibilities well ahead. So even with the players, there was a general feeling that everything was very well managed. He was calm, there was a reason behind everything. And I think as a player it just puts you in a good place.

NLU Podcast, Episode 757: Edoardo Molinari

Look out everyone – here comes substitute teacher Neil! A trio of Big Randy, KVV, and Neil form to chat mostly about golf all the way across the world.


(3:55) A sign of life from Collin Morikawa, who won the ZoZo Championship after going two years without a win. Morikawa won by a significant margin, carding a bogey-free 7-under 63. But uh, what does ZoZo do? Neil reveals they are an e-commerce company based out of Japan.

Randy’s excited about a Collin win, but meanwhile, KVV is struggling to root for Collin. When it comes to golf, there are aspects of Collin’s game that are outstanding – so why isn’t he winning more? Seems like the change to the pencil grip has finally paid off.

The guys debate the success of various professional golfers and the success with their signature grips. 

(17:00) How good of a Settlers of Catan player is Collin Morikawa?


(22:00) Once again, trying to understand the fall series and what it means to its competitors.

(27:40) Neil, KVV and Randy decide if they are buying/selling Collin in 2024. What does his legacy mean re: him vs. Viktor, his long-term projections and how far his iron play can actually take him. They then dive into some other big-name Fall series guys who chased down Morikawa, including Eric Cole, Beau Hossler and Justin Suh.

(44:30) In a bit of a throwback to one of her biggest career highlights, Minjee Lee defeated Alison Lee in a playoff at the BMW Ladies Championship (Hint: She did so to win the U.S. Girls’ Junior in 2012). Randy leads the breakdown, and notes Minjee has joined some elite company in becoming a two-time winner this season: Lilia Vu and Celine Boutier (3), and Jin Young Ko and Ruoning Yin (2).

Minjee’s win serves as a nice reminder of just how on top of the professional game she remains – as KVV points out, she led pro golf last year in strokes gained in every distance against any player on the PGA Tour last year.

(50:00) Is a Lydia Ko revival in the works? In collecting her first top-ten since the start of her 2023 season, she may need to string a few good weeks in order to make the Tour Championship – an event where she is the defending champion. There are three more events until the season finale – and it should be pretty interesting to see who locks up a spot in the event.

Randy goes down the leaderboard and extends his well wishes to the family of Kevin McAlpine, who suddenly passed away this weekend. He was the previous caddie for Lexi Thompson and former husband of Anna Nordqvist. Nordqvist WD’d from the event.


(55:50) Bienvenido a Miami! The LIV Team Championship. Note: The guys recorded this before the conclusion of play.


I’m not even gonna lie, I genuinely had no idea how this event even worked, but thanks to Neil, I am a much more educated golf fan. But there was a stroke play finale on Sunday where all 48 players were counting scores toward their respective remaining teams. However, only four teams advanced from the semifinals and were competing for the $14M top prize: Crushers GC, Torque, 4 Aces and RangeGoats GC. I just learned three of those existed today.

Crushers GC, led by Bryson DeChambeau, ultimately came out on top – congrats to KVV for making the right pick.


Randy doesn’t like the try-hard LIV vibe. Neil roasts the fashion, and how one can actually enjoy a LIV broadcast…if anyone knows, please let me know.

(1:04:50) Maybe we won’t see the framework agreement go through this year, but could we see some more players jumping to LIV? But also, is anyone watching this?

Check out the No Laying Up Pro Shop! Big restock on the ladies collection. There’s plenty of fun fall collections out, including the FootJoy Fall Collection 

and No Laying Up x Holderness and Bourne.

Randy, I am also professional golf fatigued. Aside from the LPGA – which probably deserves a schedule re-do – I’m struggling to care that much about professional golf. Can I miss it a little? 

(1:01:00) The pop of color argument is valid, but I’m not sure DJ leaving Adidas makes him, in the words of ASAP Rocky, a “fashion killa.” Feels like he’s still somewhat in his comfort zone. Not really the best source of fashion inspo here, Neil.


(1:01:20) “A lot of these guys are dressing like clowns with these crew socks. And the logos? I can’t believe we’re still going with the clip art stuff. It’s unbelievable.” -Neil


(1:13:20) “There just seems to be such a disconnect between them wanting to make golf this cool hip thing and me thinking ‘Guys, golf is never gonna be cool – it’s just not that cool!’” -Randy

Angel Yin (4th) who is fresh off of her first career LPGA victory

Atthaya Thitikul (T5) who bounced back from a tough summer, notches her second top-five in a row

NLU Young Hitter Lauren Coughlin (T10) sits just outside the top 60

Perrine Delacour goes 66-66: “I believe we call that the Mackenzie Hughes.” -Randy

Sung-Hyun Park – the 2017 Player of the Year – a T16 is her best finish all year.


Will Haskett: Minjee Lee 2022 GOAT iron play stat

 (2:05) Thanks to our friends over at FootJoy. You know the benefit of having FootJoy on your feet, but with the Thermoseries layering system, you can golf in more conditions to extend your season. Visit the FootJoy website 

(43:00) Shoutout to our friends at Precision Pro – who exclusively carry the No Laying Up rangefinder carrying case! Don’t wait – 

No Laying Up Podcast

NLU Podcast, Episode 768: Lee Trevino

NLU Podcast, Episode 767: Hunter Mahan

NLU Podcast, Episode 766: Ludvig, TGL Roof Collapses, Rory Leaves the Board, RSM Classic (+ Show Notes)

NLU Podcast, Episode 765: LPGA Check-In

NLU Podcast, Episode 764: Michael Kim

NLU Podcast, Episode 763: Butterfield Recap + Max Homa from South Africa ( + Show Notes)

NLU Podcast, Episode 762: The TGL

NLU Podcast, Episode 761: 1996 Majors

NLU Podcast, Episode 760: Sean Foley

NLU Podcast, Episode 759: Asia-Pacific Amateur Recap (+ Show Notes)

NLU Podcast, Episode 758: Latest LPGA News and Notes + Gabi Ruffels Interview

NLU Podcast, Episode 757: Edoardo Molinari

NLU Podcast, Episode 756: ZoZo Championship Recap (+ Show Notes)

NLU Podcast, Episode 755: Steph Curry

NLU Podcast, Episode 754: Shriners Recap (+ Show Notes)

NLU Podcast, Episode 753: Zac Blair

NLU Podcast, Episode 752: LPGA Check In

NLU Podcast, Episode 751: Sanderson & KFT Tour Championship Recap (+Show Notes)