On the eve of his 84th birthday, we are honored to welcome Lee Trevino to the pod for the first time. Over the course of two hours we cover Lee's unlikely story of overcoming poverty and hardship in his youth, his introduction to the game, military service in the Marine Corps, money game matches and introduction to the pro tour, winning majors, competing against Nicklaus, Palmer and Player and a ton more.

A fresh, funny discussion of all things golf from the guys at No Laying Up. Episodes air twice a week and topics include tournament recaps, interviews, deep dive player profiles, golf travel, and more.

No Laying Up Podcast

NLU Podcast, Episode 768: Lee Trevino

TC & Randy are back from Thanksgiving and chopping it up. They cover some sports, a little bit of air travel, and a laundry list of things that need monitoring. Enjoy!

The No Laying Up collective chops it up with a wide variety of guests from all corners of the golf world, and more importantly, guests from the golf-adjacent world. 



TrapDraw Podcast

Episode 266: TC & Randy Chop Session

When Tiger Woods sat down in front of the media on Tuesday at the Hero World Challenge, there was a noticeable trickle of sweat running down the right side of his jaw. As is often the case with Woods, he had just wrapped up something — perhaps a workout, a range session, or a meet-and-greet with sponsors — and had arrived for his latest obligation. He did not have time to run a towel over his face.


If you were searching for metaphors, it was a decent one. Woods, who was once again returning to the public eye after a long absence, has been working hard to repair things that have been broken, both in his body and his tour. He also doesn’t mind letting us know he’s been working hard. The suffering, and the grind, he still wears like a badge of honor.

For thirty minutes, Woods fielded questions from the media about a handful of topics. These days, his press conferences hit a lot of the same notes, like an iconic band playing its greatest hits.


“I love competing, I love playing,” Woods said. “I miss being out here with the guys, I miss the camaraderie and the fraternity-like atmosphere out here and the overall banter. But what drives me is I love to compete.”

His ankle no longer has pain after a “subtalar fusion” but he expects that surgery will eventually cause problems elsewhere in his body.

“The forces have to go somewhere,” Woods said. “Other parts are taking the brunt of the load, so I’m a little sore in other areas, but the ankle is good.” 

He feels confident he can both walk and play 90 holes this week — a practice round and four tournament rounds — without major issues, something he hasn’t been capable of since he withdrew from the Masters last April. He’s not sure how good his golf will be, but he’s eager to find out. He would love to play at least once a month in 2024, but that’s the most optimistic scenario.

“I’ve played a lot of holes, but I haven't used a pencil and scorecard,” Woods said. “You put a pencil to paper and it really counts, it's a little bit different story. So I'm very curious about that as well.”


Perhaps more interestingly, he acknowledged that he has been hard at work behind the scenes trying to find a path forward for the PGA Tour and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia, but gave little insight into whether the two entities will emerge as partners or return to a landscape where they are adversaries. He made it clear he was not happy with the way the framework agreement came together without input from the players, which is what directly inspired him to join the PGA Tour’s Player Advisory Board as its sixth player director.


“I was frustrated with the fact that the players were never involved. This is our tour,” Woods said. “We were all taken back by it. It happened so quickly without any of our involvement. No one knew. That can't happen again.”

What does Tiger Woods want at this point in his career? It’s an interesting question, and the answer may be more nuanced than he wants to reveal, but there were clues hinted at during his brief session with the media.

For 25 years, we’ve been conditioned to believe 

all Woods wants is to chase a piece of history,

secure his legacy as the greatest golfer the game has ever seen.

 Some of that, however, feels like projection, especially these days. 

 want those things for Woods, but his goals seem more inclusive, and less selfish than they once were.


Woods knows his time as a competitor is running out. “There will come a point in time, I haven't come around to it fully yet, that I won't be able to win again,” he said. “When it does I’ll walk—

Woods paused, trying to find the right phrasing.


“Now I can walk,” he joked. “I won’t say run away, but I’m going to walk away.”


Before that day arrives, he would like to do everything he can to ensure there will be a healthy landscape of professional golf going forward.

“That's part of the deal we're working through is trying to find a path, whatever that looks like,” he said. “There's so many different scenarios. That's why I said there's a lot of sleepless hours trying to figure that out, a lot of participation from the players and what does that look like.”

There is no question that Woods could have received a massive payday from the PIF if he’d been interested in joining the LIV Tour, but even with the cold war between the two sides thawing, Woods seems offended by the idea. That he spent 25 years building up the popularity of the PGA Tour clearly matters deeply to him, and without directly saying it, it seems fair to say he did not appreciate commissioner Jay Monahan, and directors Ed Herlihy and Jimmy Dunne signing away its future without his input.

“This is our Tour,” Woods said. “That can’t happen again.”

Woods acknowledged the looming Dec. 31 deadline in the framework agreement and said it could be extended if the two sides can’t iron out the details, but agree in principle. But he was quick to add there are other scenarios too, some that might not involve the Saudis.

“Everyone involved wants a return, that's just part of doing deals,” Woods said. “But we have to protect the integrity of our Tour and what that looks like and what that stands for going forward. Trying to figure all that out in the past few months has been a very difficult task. There are a lot of different options, a lot of different parts that are moving, trying to get a deal done whether it's from all different types of money. But we have to protect what the Tour is for the players.”

Does he have a feel for what the future of professional golf might look like a year from now?


“I would say it’s murky,” Woods said.

Bringing clarity to that future might not be as sexy as winning 18 majors, but it might be as important to the game as anything on his trophy wall.

Kevin Van Valkenburg is the Editorial Director for No Laying Up.

The Tiger Woods Repair

Hunter Mahan returns to the pod to catch up on all things Ryder Cup and gives his take 

 Before the Ryder Cup discussion, Hunter shares his reasons for optimism concerning the professional game and offers some insight into the players' response to the communication from the Tour concerning the framework agreement.

For more Ryder Cup tales from Hunter, check out our interview 

Here's a sneak peek at Soly's conversation with Hunter... (Note: Answers edited for clarity and conciseness...) 

 It's culture. You're talking about somebody who just harvests some kind of culture. I refer to this all the time, Shane Ryan does a great series of podcasts for Golf Digest called 

 He has an episode about 1983 and 1985. If you wanna talk about the Seve stuff, I don't have the exact quotes, but in 1983 down in Palm Beach, they had the closest Ryder Cup ever in the modern era on US turf.

The team was pretty devastated afterward. And Seve like got them in the locker room - everybody's devastated and crying. He's like, "This is a victory for us. This is the best we've ever done and we will win in 1995." 

"When we go to Belfry, we will win." And that's how that night ended, was in celebration. Jose Maria Olazabal said, "I would happily give one major back to play in the Ryder Cup." That traces all the way back to creating a buy-in back in the 80s that has permeated through that team since then. The US has had some success in short bursts, but that has never been harvested or led by anyone.

In the one instance you're referring to, there was no rollover from Azinger into 2010. And that kind of feeling was lost. I can't ask enough people about how to explain being inspired. I've not played in one of these yet. I'm working on it. But I imagine you can't just listen to Metallica and get pumped up and play amazing golf, right? It's not an adrenaline test. It's not like who can get the most jacked up to play. What does inspiration mean? How does it help you play better golf?

 Well, I think that Paul did a really good job of a slow bleed, right? It wasn't that week of running through a wall. 

Phil sat me down after I got picked. It was at a playoff event or something. And he went through this whole list. He said, "We're gonna win and lemme tell you why." And he went through this whole list. I told the Golf Digest guys how important Phil was. And Phil kept a lot of these teams together in a lot of different ways. He's very inspiring. (But) he's not inspiring by running through a wall or banging tables or any sort of speeches.

He really cares. The Europeans that they care about this event more than when, when, when they say that, when Maria Olazabal says that, it says, I would happily give up whatever to, to play one more to be a part of it - they mean that. You have to get the players to get ownership of the team. You can't just be the leader of them. The thing that Paul did was that he was just so energized and so excited about the opportunity and he brought in the people and the fans.

You don't get that over there. So you have to kind of create it. But the reality is, you've got to put it on the players and find little groups and little pods of them. People hated the pod thing, but the reason why it worked is that 12 people can't bond that week. But you need to give the players ownership and say, this is your team, we're all gonna need to help inspire each other. And it has to be this bleed of continuous motivation throughout that whole year and keep everyone's minds kind of investing in it the whole time, right? It's not a one-week thing.

NLU Podcast, Episode 767: Hunter Mahan

Armchair architecture experts Tron and Office Hours host Wolfie walk through their lists of their five favorite clubhouses in the world, spanning across the U.S. and far beyond.

 Myopia Hunt Club, Shoreacres, Valley Club of Montecito

Presenting Office Hours with Michael Wolf (@bamabearcat).

Office Hours

Office Hours: Top Five Clubhouses In The World

It's been some time since we've done a crew-wide Q&A 

and after a big year, I figured there was no better time to survey the NLU squad. Let's dive in.

What has been your “NLU highlight” of 2023?

Allow me to first go down the leaderboard of honorable mentions as it’s been a really fun year: competing with my close personal friend

 at the Open Championship, and watching Carlota Ciganda 

 in front of King and Country to win the Solheim Cup would all be easy answers…


But, The Roost Club Championship at Sweetens Cove is the true highlight of 2023. Sweetens Cove and specifically, 

, hold a really special place in my heart. I get a great deal of joy out of watching people play the course, especially in a competitive format, for the first time. I will never get sick of making the trip to Tennessee’s Sequatchie Valley, and if you haven’t joined a Roost yet, consider 

Best piece of content you’ve consumed in 2023?

, a podcast that dives deep into the history and success of different businesses, during long runs and road trips. Warning: these podcasts are 3-4 hours long, but I really love the approach the hosts take: well-researched but conversational. They explore the history of each business and then analyze why they think the business is successful or unique. It’s something KVV and Soly are doing with our recent topic-based podcasts on 

 (fascinating, especially because I remember it happening in 4th grade but never really knew how bad these hombres were), 

One of the perks of this job is getting to play a lot of different golf courses, but at the same time, I only played 3 courses this year more than once. I often finish a round dying for another chance to play and hit certain shots again. One of those courses was Camargo in Cincinnati, where I played in a member/guest with one of my best friends. It was a joy to play one of the best courses in the country on repeat for 3 days, and I think Carmargo has some of the best par 3s in golf.

Grade school Neil would say Mike Piazza (but D.J. has urged me to reconsider). New answer is John Elway (his steakhouse in the Denver airport sucks too).


Easiest question of 2023. My new Dyson vacuum. I spent way too much time researching this purchase, and I’m thrilled I ponied up for 

 now that I have a black lab in an apartment with a white color palette!

A lot of directions we could go here. I had such a fun time in Rome, both on our scouting trip with Justine, Soly and Ben, and 

then during the actual Ryder Cup with Soly and KVV. 

 It’s easy to circle dates on the calendar years in advance and say “I can’t wait for X tournament in Y city,” but oftentimes those trips are contained solely to tournament dates and you spend most of your time there in media centers, shuttles and trying to find convenient meals before early wake-up calls. This year in Rome was one of the first times we’ve actually made a significant effort (with the help of the homies at BMW) to go over early and really get to know the course, the area, the people and let that excitement build all year. It made the Ryder Cup so much more fun and hopefully made our coverage better as well.


I’m going to go movie-related. Of course: “Oppenheimer,” “Killers of the Flower Moon” and “The Killer.” Underrated things I loved: “Past Lives” and “They Cloned Tyrone.” But the one that I want to shout out is “Beau is Afraid.” I don’t think it was the best movie I saw. I honestly don’t know what I thought about it. But I can’t stop thinking about it. I dare you to watch it. God, you might HATE it. It’s so sick.

Punchable answer: Sand Hills. Absolutely tip-top of the bucket list and it delivered on every expectation. I could play Nos. 7 and 8 all day every day for the rest of my life.

We had a chance to sneak out one afternoon

 during a shoot in St. Andrews and it’s a round I’ve thought about a lot since. It’s obviously drowned out by its more famous neighbors, but I can’t wait to go back.


One thing I really wanted to upgrade when we moved into our new house in Milwaukee was my audio setup. I love collecting records, but I’m like a 20 handicap when it comes to actual gear expertise. We decided to go with a new turntable from U-Turn Audio, which I’ve really loved. The gear is all very simple and clean and the ability to choose all the options you want and build a custom turntable not only helped me learn a lot more about how different pieces work but also allowed us to get exactly what we needed for our room. Highly recommend!

Justin Hueber fixing my putting on Film Room

I'm going with what I know will be at the top of my Spotify 2023 Rewind - the new album that I have listened to by far the most this year is 

 - it gets me fired up as soon as I hear the first note.

Sweetens Cove!  Finally checked that one off the list, and there was no better way to do it than at the Roost Club Championship. Had a smile on my face the whole time I was there - just a super fun course made better surrounded by our great community.

.  As someone who does a lot of shipping from home, the ability to now print/peel/stick a label in a matter of seconds from my computer or phone has been a massive upgrade to the shipping process.

I really, really loved the video we made about Jim Hartsell called “

”. I was extremely proud of the work Tron, DJ, Matt Golden, & Paddy Neill did in capturing and producing Jim’s story. It’s an amazing piece of content and one I’m so proud lives on our site.

It didn’t get any more enjoyable this year for me than the Oppenheimer one-two punch. Knowing that the Christopher Nolan movie was releasing later in 2023, I began reading the book the film is based on - “

American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer

” - early in the year. The book is amazing in its depth and breadth and was an awesome primer for the movie, which did not disappoint at all.

I was fortunate to get to play several amazing courses for the first time this year, Pine Valley among them, but the course that sticks out the most in my mind is Woking Golf Club outside London, England. Cody and I went over there on an afternoon prior to the start of the Women’s British Open and I could not have been more charmed by the place. It was quaint, challenging, fun, and walkable. And the colors were incredible—purple heath everywhere the eye could see. The highest compliment I can pay to Woking, or any course, is it’s a place I would love to play over and over day after day.

My best purchase of the year is a membership to a yoga studio near me. As I turned 40 this year, I decided I had to get serious about reclaiming (and preserving) my flexibility and mobility. I had been ignoring and putting off stretching as part of any workout routine with the result being a pretty constant feeling of tightness in my hips, legs, and low back. I’m now a couple of months into a dedicated routine of yoga (3x per week) and my back feels so much looser, and my body generally feels better than it has in a couple of years.

2023 AIG Women's Open with the Big Guy. From playing in the Pro-Am to doing BBC Radio throughout the week, it was a blast! Lots of "face for radio" jokes from people we ran into. But the highlight of it all was spending 1 on 1 time with Big. We played some great golf courses, ate too much curry and Chinese with Ian Carter and family, and tried all the G&Ts we could. I cannot wait for the Old Course next year.

I feel like everywhere I turn there is a new series or book being recommended to me. Sad to see Succession and Ted Lasso go out, but was excited for The Bear and The Crown to come back strong.

In the golf world, everyone thinks they deserve buckets full of cash. Your allegiance must be stated to support this or that. But we did have something cut through. Watching 

 will be a defining moment for me this year. Not because we did the project, but because of Jim. His vulnerability and openness to discuss the single hardest moment in any parent's life made me stop and think. It taught me to cherish what is in front of you because you never know when it is gone. It made me reach back out to friends, family, etc. It taught me to be present. It would not be possible without the love and support TC put into it. Coupling his vision with D.J. Pie to create something that will last long after we are gone. And Matt Golden seeing the whole thing through, with support from Paddy Neill and the great Justine Piehowski. If you have not sat down and watched the 50-minute film, please do so. You never know what you might be missing out on.


Sand Hills. Thanks to TC and D.J. Pie for a once-in-a-lifetime experience that will be hard to beat. Those two with an amazing host made it something I will never forget. Shout out to Commander Taco, Ben's porch, and ruby red Squirt (a splash is delicious in your vodka).


Mike Vick, followed closely by Ryan Leaf.


My wife's 40th Birthday trip to Italy. I hope it brings me goodwill for years to come.

Playing a match with Golden, Big, and D.J.

 at Lundin Links after a great day filming at the Walker Cup.


I’ve been trying hard to get into reading (specifically business/self-help books) more this year. Neil asked me to read Shoe Dog and I am so happy I did. From fostering that competitive mindset to stories about Pre and Bowerman - the whole book is a real treat.


Any KU Basketball player that isn’t playing well at the moment.

At-home baby monitor. That peace of mind knowing the baby is still kicking was a big help in our household. Don’t tell our doctor.

What's Burning at the Killhouse: 2023 Recap

It is often our job at No Laying Up to be skeptics (even cynics) when we think about the landscape of golf.


We strive to remain, despite the steady growth of our company over the last decade, grounded by the idea that we ought to represent the voice of the fan, the avid community of golfers around the world that is mostly just asking to be informed or entertained each week. It can be easy to grow disillusioned or frustrated with aspects of the game, whether television coverage, the massive commercial load, slow play, or the endless bickering over money, and we feel like it’s important to give oxygen to those frustrations, particularly when we share them.

We may not always get it right in your eyes, but we promise you this: Our feelings are never anything but genuine.


With that in mind, on this Thanksgiving, we’d like to (temporarily) remove our skeptic’s hat and talk about a few things we are thankful for in this sometimes messy, often-fractured, frequently confusing world of golf.


It’s important to give thanks and to be grateful for the stuff you believe in.


, which are both the skeleton and the soul of the game. These are not to be confused with accessible but expensive tracks like Pinehurst, or Bandon Dunes, or Kapalua. A bucket list trip is a gift and a membership at an exclusive club might be a goal, but there is something irreplaceable about a Sunday morning tee time at a local muni with a group of friends.

You might change your shoes in the parking lot. You might warm up by hitting balls off a threadbare mat. You might see someone mark their ball with a beer can. None of it matters if you’re lucky enough to get that first tee time when you can still see the dew on the grass and the ball disappearing (then reappearing) in the early morning light.

Every golfer, no matter how wealthy or successful they become, ought to have a favorite muni they return to from time to time, one where the superintendent punches above his weight, where the hot dogs at the turn are better than they deserve to be, and quirks of layout test your patience but feel as familiar as the lyrics of an old song.

You know that bunker, the one on the wrong side of a dogleg with its ragged edges and concrete sand? Every muni has one. She’s infuriating, but … we’ve been through some stuff together. Job changes, a marriage (or two), a couple kids, a sore knee, that magical round when we flirted with a score that didn’t seem possible. We used to hate that bunker. Maybe we still do. But at this point, we can’t help but love it too.

, for borders and oceans we sometimes cross just to put our peg in the ground and stare down that first fairway.

Maybe you’ll never get to play Tara Iti in New Zealand and hear the waves crash on the beach as you line up a putt. Maybe you’ll never gaze out into the dunes of Nebraska, and marvel at the ripples that nature made before Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw went looking for 18 holes in an ocean of sand.

But every course — even one on the other side of town — is a mystery until you explore it for the first time. It doesn’t need to change your life. But it might draw you in like a magnet, and give you an excuse to visit a dot on the map you’d otherwise ignore.


If the weather is merciful where you live, go find a course you’ve never played before the calendar flips. It might be forgettable. But it also might surprise you.

Speaking of surprises, we are thankful for 

He wasn’t a surprise to us, the way he was to many. But what started as a joke — a funny, off-handed defense of the future of the European Ryder Cup teams during the beat down at Whistling Straits — turned into an answered prayer. Åberg hasn’t played in a single major, and already he’s become one of the brightest lights in the game today.


Will Åberg be the next Tiger Woods or even the next Rory McIlroy? Probably not. The odds are obviously against him, as they are with any young golfer. Even voicing those expectations may serve as fuel for the machine that eventually grinds him down. But none of that matters at this moment. What matters now is what he 

 be — the best driver of the ball the sport has seen since Greg Norman.

There is nothing in golf as intoxicating as the beginning of a prodigy’s career. And in this case, the prodigy seems grounded and mature and willing to embrace the expectations.


Hope, as Red said in Shawshank Redemption, can be a dangerous thing.

But every once in a while, you have to go on a bender.


In this case, the high might last for years.

, which remains as riveting as any event in sports. Even the blowouts give us a reason to care. When have you ever seen Scottie Scheffler or Rory McIlroy weeping in defeat outside the Ryder Cup? Where else could have seen Boo Weekley riding his driver like a pony down the first fairway, or Shane Lowry bounding along the rope line like a professional wrestler waiting to be tagged into a match?


As a mixture of drama, pride and entertainment, it remains undefeated.


We are thankful for Luke Donald and Eduardo Molinari (some of us more than others) for their leadership and competence, the way they took a potential mess left by Henrik Stenson and turned it into one of the best European Ryder Cup squads in memory, choosing the best team and then putting them in the right mindset to succeed.

But not all our praise goes to the men in blue. There was a moment this year in Rome when Max Homa stood over a putt on the 18th green at Marco Simone on Sunday, that reminded us how inconsequential the squabbling over money feels when you contrast it with something that actually matters. LIV Golf could play for a billion dollars — which they may propose at some point — and it would still not measure up to the pressure Homa faced needing to defeat Matt Fitzpatrick to keep the United States alive in the competition.

There wasn’t a lot of upside for Homa at that moment. The United States was most likely going to lose the Ryder Cup regardless of what happened on Homa’s putt. But for now, the Ryder Cup hung in the balance. It was black and white. If he missed, the Europeans would win. If he drained it, the United States still had a sliver of hope.


How do you not feel thankful to bear witness to a moment like that?

Some stuff — thank god — will never be up for sale.


We are thankful, each day, for the existence of the 

, even the weird corners of Golf Twitter (which we refuse to refer to as X) that feel like they could be creatures in the Mos Eisley Cantina.


If Twitter sputters and flickers out, or descends further into a cesspool of bootlickers and losers, it will be a shame. Because golf, much like college football, has to be covered with a sense of humor if you’re going to do it right. Mainstream golf media has always been a little too stiff, a little too serious, for its own good. Imagine if there wasn’t a community of golfers eager to poke fun at the haughtiness.


This includes the litany of content creators on YouTube, most of whom seem to be having way more fun than anyone playing professionally.

In the same breath, we remain thankful and indebted to 

 which has given us reams of stats to pore over, the quality of it far better than what any tour has to offer.

who has been a beacon of hope in a frequently frustrating broadcast space. He is prepared, cogent, consistent and entertaining, qualities that are not often combined by those in his position.

, two generational talents who remind us how much the majors matter above everything else. Would we like to see them face each other more often? Certainly. But what truly matters is watching them lock horns with history on the line. We remain optimistic we’ll see more of it in 2024.


 in golf, for the way the game resets itself every few years and ushers in a new generation of potential. Like Ludvig, we are thankful for the promise of 

, or her precocious, timeless swing. There was a world of expectation on her shoulders when she turned pro, and she has navigated it thus far with grace. (Winning in her first start didn’t hurt either.)


, who made the most out of his PGA Tour U status and is quickly en route to the PGA Tour. And we are thankful for 

 unique swing and his unique facial hair. Bennett’s performance at the Masters represented some of the most exciting days of watching a major championship this year. And we are excited about recent NCAA national champions, 

, who have a chance to make noise as professionals. Platforming rising stars instead of letting them fade into pro golf obscurity was always the right move.


. Each was a reminder of how much joy we got this year out of following the women’s professional game.

, the crusty genius that he is. His routing of The Tree Farm, and his work on Pinehurst No. 10, represented two of the best courses we played this year, and it feels like he might be entering the most fun, dynamic period of his career.


 at Sand Valley. You cannot go wrong with any of them, but if you buy one for yourself, buy a second (or a third) for someone in your foursome. Good karma will follow.

we have found in all of you — readers, listeners, viewers — 

 who can’t help but make golf a regular part of your life.

We may not agree on everything. You may be skeptical about Åberg, annoyed with Rory McIlroy, or heavily invested in the future of the Aces, the Fireballs and the Cleeks. (Can you believe, btw, that Blandy re-signed so quickly?)

Perhaps all we have in common is we can’t resist chasing 

, the one you get when you flush a long iron and you watch it dance on the wind, well above the horizon line, just before it tumbles back to earth.


That’s all you need, some days, to chase the cynicism out of your body, and to feel thankful for whatever comes next.

Kevin Van Valkenburg is the Editorial Director of No Laying Up. He wrote this piece after consulting with other members of the squad on what they were thankful for this year. You can guess who nominated Ludvig.

NLU Podcast, Episode 768: Lee Trevino

Episode 266: TC & Randy Chop Session

The Tiger Woods Repair

NLU Podcast, Episode 767: Hunter Mahan

Office Hours: Top Five Clubhouses In The World

What's Burning at the Killhouse: 2023 Recap

NLU 2023: What We're Thankful For

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